kick scooters for adults commuting

When picking the perfect kick scooters for adults commuting, it’s important to consider several aspects such as weight limit, tire size, and brake location, along with whether it’s electric or not. We considered these and more when creating our list of best scooters for adults. 

Scooters aren’t just for kids anymore. Sure, you probably have great memories of riding one as a child in the park or down the street, having the time of your life. You can now feel free to regain that feeling with a scooter for adults. Scooting is a cheap, fun, and environmentally friendly way to commute or get around, and it’s recently become quite popular in cities that offer scooter rentals (and even cities that don’t). Why rent when you can buy?

With large cities struggling to keep up with demand for public transportation, scooting allows you to create your own route at your own pace, so you’ll never have to run after a train as it pulls from the station before schedule ever again. 

And whether you choose an electric or manual scooter, one thing you’ll definitely need is a helmet. This Amazon’s Choice Schwinn bike helmet comes in several sizes, is lightweight, and can be had for less than $25. (Scooter safety is just as important as bike safety!)

kick scooters for adults commuting

Here are our picks. 

1. Best Overall – Hudora Unisex Big Wheel Style 230 Scooter

Hudora Unisex Big Wheel Style 230 Scooter

Features

  • High quality aluminium deck with reinforced wings
  • Extruded rear wheel friction brake
  • Heavy-duty folding mechanism
  • Adjustable shoulder strap
  • Anti-shock comfort handles

Check Price

As the upgraded version of the BigWheel® 205, the BigWheel® 230 is worthy of the best kick scooter title. It boasts a high-quality aluminium construction and sturdy PU cast wheels able to deliver smooth rides even on bumpier roads.

The main difference between the two is the presence of a bigger front wheel on the 230. It’s easy to understand we’re talking about a 230mm front wheel, while the rear is the same 205mm Hudora already accustomed us to.

A bigger front wheel enhances manoeuvrability. Handling it has a nicer feel compared to the 205, and overall, this option also seems more sturdy.

Like you could expect from a scooter that’s a remake after a popular classic, the 230 maintained all features that made the BigWheel® famous in the first place. It comes with a height-adjustable handlebar, it folds quickly whenever needed, and boasts useful reflectors on handlebar and deck.

Speaking about the deck, we like its non-slip finish that enhances grip and makes your ride safer.

Perfect for everyone 12 years old and up, the BigWheel® 230 has a load capacity of 120kg and comes in two colours, black or white.

Pros

  • Extruded rear friction brake is very responsive
  • Reflectors on handlebar and deck enhance safety
  • Height-adjustable from 88 to 106.5 centimetres

Cons

  • Expensive

2. Best Budget – Razor A5 Air Commuter Scooter

Razor A5 Air Commuter Scooter

Features

  • Designed for commuting
  • Strong aluminium frame
  • Easy adjust handlebars with rubber grips
  • 200mm pneumatic tyres

Check Price

The last entry on our list of best adult scooters for commuting comes from Razor. The A5 Air Commuter is half-way between the A5 Lux and the Osprey Dirt Scooter, but its greatest strength is that it was built with commuters in mind. In other words, its wheels might seem ready to tackle the dirt, but they are specifically designed for urban terrain.

Like the Dirt Scooter, the A5 Air features 200mm wheels equipped with shock-absorbing pneumatic tyres. Needless to say, they enhance stability and deliver reliable performance on most surfaces.

You won’t be let down by the frame either. As you can expect, this workhorse features a super-strong aluminium frame designed to last for years. We really like the patent-pending anti-rattle handlebars, as well as the folding system.

Build with adults in mind, this scooter also boasts a generous deck that offers plenty of room for taller riders.

Sure this scooter may seem expensive for the budget option, but if you want to have the ultimate commuter, then the A5 Air is the right kick scooter for you.

Pros

  • Specifically designed for everyday commuting
  • Soft rubber grips enhance grasp and comfort
  • Ideal for taller riders

Cons

  • Heavy

3. Hudora Big Wheel 205 Folding Scooter

Hudora Big Wheel 205 Folding Scooter

Features

  • High quality aluminium deck with reinforced wings
  • Extruded rear wheel friction brake
  • Heavy-duty folding mechanism
  • Adjustable shoulder strap
  • Anti-shock comfort handles

Check Price

From the world-famous brand Hudora, the BigWheel® 205 is ready to help you take your morning commute to the next level. Its 205mm wheels deliver extremely safe rides even at higher speeds, and the aluminium frame resists road bumps beautifully.

Ideal for most riders, this adult scooter has a robust 100kg load capacity. Its low-lying, low-profile running board enhances driving pleasure, while the strong rear-wheel friction brake enhances safety.

Coming in a rainbow of colours, the BigWheel® 205 is an excellent choice for all genders. We particularly like the practical, one-step folding mechanism that makes it so easy to hop on and off public transport.

Parking and storing the scooter is also a breeze, thanks to its convenient, compact footprint. Compact footprint, however, is synonymous with small deck size – a thing to keep in mind if you have a larger body type.

Gents and ladies alike will also love the height-adjustable handlebar. A stand and adjustable shoulder strap are two further features that make it a winner. No doubt, the best kick scooter for commuting at a price that won’t break the bank.

Pros

  • Lightweight and easy to carry
  • Reflectors on handlebars
  • Agile in the traffic and easy to ride on most roads

Cons

  • Limited floorboard space
  • No suspensions

4. Osprey Dirt Scooter

Osprey Dirt Scooter

Features

  • Heavy-duty aluminium deck
  • Chromoly handlebars
  • 200x50mm pneumatic tyres
  • Aluminium hubs
  • 100kg max weight load

Check Price

An all-terrain scooter at heart but versatile enough for commuting, the Osprey Dirt Scooter can satisfy both the worker willing to give up the daunting public transport and the weekend warrior looking for new adventures.

From first glance, the Dirt Scooter exudes sturdiness. It impresses with a heavy-duty full aluminium deck frame and stainless steel rear fender brake. The bearings are made from aluminium too, while the Chromoly steel handlebar completes the looks with success.

Designed for no compromises, it can deliver quality rides no matter what the road is throwing at it. Perhaps the most impressive feature is its responsiveness on the downhill.

Big, pneumatic off-road tyres also cushion any road bumps. They’re not as fast or as agile as the slimmer wheels build for the asphalt but still pack a punch. The triple-stack threaded headset also enhances control, an excellent feature for rookies.

We also like that it’s outstanding from an aesthetic standpoint. It has a nice finish with quality welds and paintwork.

Never compromising on durability and performance, the Osprey Dirt Scooter is an excellent choice for commuters who also want to explore a more adrenaline-charged riding mode.

Pros

  • BMX-style forks make it suitable for all terrain.
  • Threaded headset delivers full control while manoeuvring the scooter
  • Flawless aesthetics

Cons

  • The wheels may feel a bit stiff on asphalt

5. Razor A5 Lux Kick Scooter

Razor A5 Lux Kick Scooter

Features

  • Aircraft-grade aluminium frame
  • 200mm PU wheels
  • Adjustable handlebars
  • Foldable
  • Patented rear fender brake

Check Price

Razor is one of the most popular names in the scooter market, with its A5 Lux standing out as one of the best adult scooters for commuting. This product is a well-priced, all-round kick scooter that’s up to anything, especially commuting.

This is possible thanks to its dependable construction consisting of aircraft-grade aluminium. The robust frame is complemented by the extra-wide 200mm PU wheels that can tackle all kinds of roads.

Adjustable handlebars can rise to an impressive 104cm, giving a comfortable ride even to the taller guys.

In terms of load capacity, it can hold up to 100kg, slightly less than the BigWheel 230 above.

Highlights also include a patented rear fender brake as well as a patented folding system. It doesn’t have a shoulder strap, but it’s lightweight and easy to carry.

Ideal for commuting and not only, the Razor 5 Lux is another kick scooter for adults that brings true value for money.

Pros

  • The large wheels deliver an extremely smooth ride
  • Excellent value for money
  • Available in multiple colours

Cons

  • The handle grips feel rather spongy
  • Heavier than the average road scooters

Down To You

Whether you want the ultimate scooter for commuting or a more versatile model that can deliver some weekend thrills, all scooters on this list deliver optimum performance and bring excellent value for money.

Which is the best kick scooter for commuting is ultimately down to you. Consider your riding style, aspiration, and needs, then pick the one that best fits the bill.

Electric Scooter Categories

Budget Electric Scooters (<$300)

GOTRAX Xr Elite electric scooter
The Xr Elite is a no-frills, but capable electric scooter with pneumatic tires and a disc brake

Most scooters that fall into the budget e-scooter class are not recommended for anything but minimal or light recreational use. At this budget price point, expect under-powered motors, low capacity batteries, and weak brakes. However, there are some excellent and very functional electric scooters in this category. They are worth taking a look at if this fits your budget.

See Editor’s Choices for Best Electric Scooters Under $300

Commuter Electric Scooters ($300 to $1200)

The commuter class of electric scooters is the biggest one and therefore divided into three categories. At these price points, we generally find that scooters are fairly balanced in terms of features, quality, and performance.

Budget Commuter ($300 to $600)

Xiaomi Mi M365 electric scooter on dock of lake
The Xiaomi Mi M365 is one of the most popular, value-priced scooters in the world and helped launch the sharing market.

These scooters are great for traveling shorter distances, have a reasonable range, and suitable build quality for daily commuting. Expect occasional repairs over the few years expected lifetime. Budget commuter scooters are best when your commute has relatively smooth surfaces and not a lot of steep hills. They are light enough that you can fold and carry them up stairs once in a while.

See ESG Editor’s Choices for Best Electric Scooters Under $600

Mid-ranged Commuter ($600 to $900)

Man crouching with a folded Ninebot Max electric scooter
The Segway Ninebot Max has become the go-to scooter for many scooter rental fleets, due to its range and strong build.

A mid-ranged commuting electric scooter will have a slightly larger battery for more range and possibly more motor power than the budget commuter. You won’t see any dual-motor scooters at this price, but you will see the incorporation of suspension into some models.

See ESG Editor’s Choice for Best Electric Scooters Under $900

Premium Commuter ($600 to $1200)

EMOVE Touring Electric Scooter
The EMOVE Touring is a premium commuter electric scooter with great power, range, and brilliant suspension.

Scooters in the premium commuter class typically add suspension, larger motors, bigger batteries, and better brakes to the budget and mid-range offerings. The ride will be more comfortable, safer, and have a better range due to these upgrades. However, there is a tradeoff with increased weight (around 18 kgs) that makes loading into a car or carrying upstairs more difficult.

See ESG Editor’s Choice for Best Electric Scooter Under $1200

Performance Electric Scooters ($1200 to $1600)

Apollo Explore electric scooter
The Apollo Explore is a balanced Performance Electric Scooter with a single motor, comfortable ride, and long range.

Performance electric scooters start to offer either serious speed or ultra-long range. Many of these scooters incorporate dual motors and sizable battery packs. The longest-ranged scooter in this category can deliver up to 81 kilometers of real-world range. At this price point, which ranges from $1200 to $1600, you will also start to see some premium features including large tubeless pneumatic tires, semi-hydraulic or hydraulic brakes, powerful lights, and turn signals.

See ESG Editor’s Choice for Best Electric Scooters Under $1600

Extreme Performance Electric Scooters ($2500+)

Man riding the Kaabo Wolf Warrior 11
The Wolf Warrior 11 is an extreme performance electric scooter capable of exceeding 64 kmh.

Extreme scooters like these are the highest performing in every category except portability. They have massive, dual motors (some reaching speeds above 64 kmh), extended battery life for extreme range (>64 kilometers), top-notch suspension, and hydraulically-activated disc brakes for stopping at fast speeds. Although still suitable for daily commuting, their larger tires are the only ones built for off-roading. These extreme performance scooters are the heaviest as well (typically +32 kgs), so if you need to fold and carry these scooters, make sure you are comfortable with the weight.

See ESG Editor’s Choice for Best Electric Scooters Under $2500

Electric Scooter Features

What else should you know before buying an e-scooter? Now that we’ve gone over some important factors to think about, let’s dive into some other topics that will likely influence which scooter you choose to purchase, including price, range, weight, top speed, rider weight, and IP rating.

Price

There are always going to be better and worse values in purchasing electric scooters, but basically quality and features improve with price. You won’t be buying an extreme off-road beast scooter for $200. Refer to the electric scooter categories for price brackets. 

You can use the comparison database to set min and max limits for the price to a budget range that suits your needs. This will return all scooter options available in that range, and you can jump to our detailed reviews (written and video) for most.

Range

Range refers to the distance a scooter can travel before it runs out of battery power. The range of your electric scooter will depend on various factors, including motor power, rider weight, scooter weight, weather, mode, and average speed. We perform a real-world range test on all scooters to determine a realistic assessment of range. 

Our ESG certified range test is performed by the same rider on the same urban route with frequent stops, rough roads, and uphill climbs in the scooter’s highest performance mode. The 74 kg rider pushes the scooter to its limit, maxing out the throttle and riding until the battery dies completely.

A cautious rule of thumb is to take whatever the manufacturer advertises and divide by two. Results from the 2018 electric scooter survey show most manufacturers overestimate by 30% in their range claims.

Like all batteries, as time goes on your battery capacity (and scooter range) will diminish. Most batteries will maintain their integrity for at least 300 to 500 charging cycles, with the best batteries enduring up to 1000 charging cycles before beginning to degrade. Think about your commute and how far you travel in a typical day. Remember that when your scooter runs out of power, no matter the size, you can still kick to push it.

Pro Tip: You can also bring your charger with you or buy an extra charger to leave at your destination. Some high performance scooters have dual charging ports, cutting charge time in half when using two chargers.

Weight

Weight can be a big consideration if you need to fold and carry your scooter, especially on a regular basis. 

Most scooters with a reasonable range (>24 kilometers) will weigh over 11 kgs. Scooters far exceeding 14 kgs will be fairly difficult to carry for long durations. Having a handle or shoulder strap will help bear the weight. Some scooters have extra wheels or a folded configuration that allow them to be rolled like the compact, commuter-friendly Glion Dolly. However, scooters will still have to be carried up stairs or lifted into a vehicle when transporting. Even the highly portable Dolly has folded dimensions of 94 cm by 30 cm by 20 cm and weighs 13 kgs, which can be awkward for some to carry. 

If you are in the market for recreational joyriding or beast mode off-roading and not focused on its portability, the weight is not as important a factor as build quality and top speed. If you are looking for a commuter electric scooter to solve the last mile problem on your everyday route, its weight is important to consider.

Think about your commute: 

  • Will you need to walk up stairs? 
  • Does your destination have an elevator? 
  • Do you have permission and space to store your scooter inside (primarily in workplaces)?
  • Do you have alternate transportation when poor visibility and/or inclement weather occur? 
  • Are you able to lift the scooter into a trunk? 

Some conditions, like rainy weather, may call for you to take public transportation or a rideshare home. Most drivers will allow you to put your scooter in the trunk, but you still need to be able to maneuver it into the vehicle yourself.

Pro Tip: For comparison, the average weight of a household standup vacuum cleaner is 5 kgs to 8 kgs and many have similar dimensions to large folded scooters. Alternatively, visit a sporting goods store and pick up a few dumbbells or kettlebells to test what weight you can comfortably manage.

Top Speed

Top speed is not a huge factor for most commuters as long as the scooter can reach 24 kmh. In fact, some municipalities have laws against going over 24 kmh on electric scooters and most restrict scooters from driving on pedestrian sidewalks. 

Riding in a car or even on a bicycle at 24 kmh feels different than riding an electric scooter at that speed because of the tires and acceleration. In reality, when traveling on roads or in bike lanes, 24 kmh to 29 kmh is fast enough. If riding in urban traffic regularly, scooters with good acceleration and top speeds in this range can help you avoid accidents. If you are interested in extreme performance scooters, those can go up to 81 kmh (like the Kaabo Wolf Warrior 11) and we recommend wearing serious safety gear when traveling at those speeds.

Pro Tip: Always wear a helmet when riding your scooter at any speed.

Rider Weight

The max load or max rider weight is the weight limit that the electric scooter can support. For most scooters, this limit ranges from 100 kgs to 120 kgs. If you weigh more than this, you’ll want to make sure you’re looking at scooters that can support your weight. For safety reasons, you shouldn’t exceed the weight limit specified by the manufacturer.

Keep in mind that even if the scooter is rated for your weight and you’re at the top of the limit, it will be slower and have less range compared to a lighter rider. Also consider if you’ll be carrying a backpack or anything else that will add to the overall weight the scooter will bear. For riders near or above 100 kgs, you should focus on electric scooters with at least a 500-watt motor.

Pro Tip: You can filter the comparison database based on rider weight.

Motor Power

Adult electric scooters have hub motors, which are brushless direct current (BLDC) electric motors that are built into the hub of the wheels. All electric kick scooters have at least one motor while more powerful ones will have dual motors.

Electric motors are rated based on their power consumption, which is expressed in units of watts (e.g., 600 watts). More powerful motors will have greater wattage. Motor power generally starts at 200 watts and goes all the way up to 6270 watts on the Dualtron X.

An average budget commuter scooter, like the Xiaomi Mi M365 has a 250-watt motor; a mid-range commuter scooter like the Fluid FreeRide Horizon has a 500-watt motor; and an extreme performance scooter, like the Kaabo Wolf Warrior 11, has dual 1200-watt motors (or 2400-watt motor power).

For adults, we do not recommend anything under 250 watts for daily commuting. This will be adequate for flat surfaces and very small hills. If you live in an area with steeper hills, think about going to 350 or 500 watts. Even with 500 watts, your scooter will slow down on medium-sized hills. Larger motors will not only help with powering up hills, but they will also get you up to top speed more quickly.

Suspension

Suspension, similar to that in a car, smooths out bumps and indentations in the road and improves ride quality. Without it, and especially if you have solid (airless) tires, you will feel every bump that you travel over. If your commute is longer or has rough terrain to cross, strongly consider purchasing a scooter with suspension. 

There are three main types of suspension systems that are typically found on electric scooters: spring, hydraulic or air piston, and rubber suspension. Scooters with the best suspension will have some combination of spring and piston — a combination called coil-over-hydraulic or coil-over-air.

Suspension can be attached to the front, rear, or both wheels. Scooters in the premium commuter class should have either front or rear suspension.

Close up of Apollo Pro Ludicrous suspension
Many electric scooters have no suspension, while high performance ones, like the Apollo Pro feature a beefy spring suspension.

Many scooters forgo suspension in favor of large pneumatic tires that provide damping effects. These can offer a better form of suspension than cheap spring suspensions.

Lighting

Close up of red LED taillights of the EMOVE Touring
Some scooters, like the EMOVE Touring have corner “button” LEDs which help with visibility but aren’t bright enough to stand on their own.

Scooters, like bicycles, can have a white front light and a red rear light. If you ride after dark, it is necessary to have both a front and rear light. Due to the design of electric scooters, they typically do not have very visible rear lights. If you are going to ride at night, strongly consider adding some flashing red rear lights to your helmet or backpack.

Read our guide to electric scooter lighting.

Brakes

Qiewa QPower front disc brake and wheel
The Qiewa QPower has massive fully-hydraulic disc brakes that give very strong stopping power.

A quality braking system is essential for staying safe and in control while riding an electric scooter. Like those on a car or bicycle, brakes are what slow the electric scooter down. Electric scooter brakes can be broken into two categories: mechanical and electronic.

Mechanical brake systems are those that rely on a physical mechanism to slow the scooter down and include foot, drum, and disc brakes. The typical 24 kmh stopping distance for mechanical systems is 6 meters, with the absolute best being under 3 meters. 

  • Foot brakes, which are activated by pushing your foot down on the rear fender, cause it to rub against the rear tire, slowing it down. This type of brake has stopping power but is not as effective as drum or disc brakes.
  • Drum brakes are enclosed inside the wheel hub, are generally lower maintenance than other braking types, and have consistent performance in wet conditions.
  • Disc brakes have the most stopping power and are lighter than drum brakes. They are typically found on higher-end premium commuter and high-performance scooters, but may appear on better quality budget commuter scooters as well.
  • In our real-world road tests, we found disc and drum brakes to be the most effective. 

Electronic braking systems rely on using the motor itself for braking and include strictly electric and regenerative braking systems. Electric and regenerative brakes are the weakest. If you are traveling at 15+mph and need to stop quickly, these alone will not do the job. The typical 15 mph stopping distance using an electronic brake alone is 30 to 40 feet. 

Mechanical braking systems will offer much stronger braking than electronic systems. However, electronic systems benefit from not requiring any periodic adjustments or maintenance. Many scooters will have a combination of both electronic and mechanical braking systems. For safety reasons, we recommend scooters that have at least two braking systems in case one fails.

Learn more in our technical guide to electric scooter brakes.

Tires

Close up shot of Thunder electric scooter LED taillights

Tires come in two types: solid (airless) tires and pneumatic (air-filled) tires

  • Solid tires There are a few varieties of airless tires and these include honeycomb, polymer-filled, and solid. Solid tires are inferior to pneumatic in every way except they have virtually no maintenance required. When riding on solid tires, you’re more likely to feel every bump and even stumble over lines of paint on the road. 

Pneumatic tires We always recommend pneumatic tires because they give better ride quality (with or without suspension) and their supple rubber performs much better in adverse road conditions. Some air-filled tires have inner tubes that can be replaced if damaged; other air-filled tires are tubeless. Pneumatic tires have the advantage of shock absorption and better handling (especially in bad weather). 

The downside to pneumatic tires is there is more maintenance required than the airless variety. Pneumatic tires are prone to punctures and need to be filled with air when they have low pressure. Pneumatic tires, with tubes and tubeless, are common in all price classes except the budget range, where tires are almost exclusively solid.

Pneumatic tires are common in all price ranges, except the Budget range, where tires are almost exclusively airless (solid).

Pro Tip: Do not underestimate the improved ride quality you will get with pneumatic tires. These will make a huge improvement when rolling over even minimally bumpy terrain, where road vibration can be very uncomfortable on your feet and legs. Additionally, you can prevent flat tires by following a few simple tips.

Learn more about the differences between pneumatic and solid tires in our electric scooter tire guide.

IP Rating

The ingress protection or IP rating tells you how resistant an electric scooter is to dust and water. The IP rating consists of two numbers, but we focus on the second because it tells you how water-resistant the scooter is. The greater the number is — the more resistant it is to water and moisture.

Not all scooters have an IP rating. If you are planning on riding your scooter in all weather conditions, you will want to invest in one with at least IPx4 water-resistance.

IP RATINGMEANING
IPx0No protection
IPx1 to IPx3Very limited water resistance
IPx4 to IPx6Suitable for riding in the rain
IPx7+Can be fully submerged in water

Pro Tip: You can sort our electric scooter comparison database, based on IP rating (the column is titled “Water”).

Read our guide on Electric Scooter IP Ratings.

Distributors

Where you buy an electric scooter can be almost as important as what you buy. When deciding who to buy from, you have a few options.

  • Domestic
    • Brick and mortar
      • PEV store
      • Big box store (e.g., Best Buy, Costco)
      • Department store (e.g., Macy’s) 
    • Online
      • Specialty distributors (e.g. Apollo, Fluid Freeride VORO Motors)
      • Big box (e.g., Amazon)
  • Direct from China
    • e.g. Alibaba / AliExpress
  • Crowd-funded Campaigns

Domestic

The ESG Editors tend to favor buying from a good domestic distributor, even though it will generally cost more. A decent electric scooter will cost hundreds or thousands of dollars. The value added from buying an electric scooter from a gooddomestic distributor will be enormous. These distributors will often provide a good warranty with customer support for troubleshooting, replacement parts, repair, and so on. 

Generally, the benefits of buying domestically is fast shipping and better post-purchase support. The main downside is that buying domestically tends to be more expensive than buying directly from China.

Local personal electric vehicle (PEV) dealers are a good option if you have any nearby. You can check out scooters in person and the dealers will offer the best post-purchase support. However, they tend to be the most expensive option with the smallest scooter selection.

As an online retailer, Amazon will have the fastest shipping, easiest returns, and a wide selection. However, you’ll have to rely on the manufacturer for post-purchase support after the return window has closed (typically 30 days). For popular scooters, like the Xiaomi Mi M365 with many parts and repair guides readily available, this shouldn’t be a problem.

Specialty distributors are online retailers that import, sell, and provide post-purchase support for electric scooters. Each of these retailers tend to specialize in a specific brand. Some scooter distributors include ApolloFluid FreeRide, and VORO Motors. Due to their specialization, they tend to offer a balance of the best prices and post-purchase support.

Direct from China

The benefit of buying direct from China is cost savings, which can be significant. The downsides include:

  • Slow shipping time It can sometimes take months to receive an order.
  • Meager customer support If there is a major problem you will not be able to return the scooter, though they may be willing to ship you parts to perform repairs yourself.
  • Brand authenticity The scooter you buy may be a similar-looking cloneof the branded model you really wanted. Some parts may be identical, but others may be different and worse.

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